tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post6503385341163398550..comments2024-01-16T08:40:53.682+00:00Comments on <a href="http://www.openeurope.org.uk">Open Europe</a>: Dutch government: "Time of ‘ever closer union’ in every possible area is behind us”OEhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00556463374230498875noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-35800687523524832652013-06-25T11:59:05.717+01:002013-06-25T11:59:05.717+01:00In present-day EU I see two dominating trends amon...In present-day EU I see two dominating trends among EU leaders: First is to cut losses of players in virtual economy at the expense of taxpayers and the second is to guide EU towards strict federation at the expense of democracy. The 'austerity' measures are destroying national economies making it impossible for them to ever to pay back those debts created by banksters (bank mafia, spekulants) of virtual economy and their political cabals. At grassroots people have become the victim of parasitic credit capitalism and its unelected institutions. During last five years emergency economics has made it possible to replace democracy with debtocracy. In my opinion It is slow motion death spiral of economic collapse and democracy. The best scenario from my point of view could be some kind of EU Lite version. A bit of similar ”privileged partnership” agreement than planed with Turkey (to keep it out from EU). EU Lite should be build simply to EU’s early basics as economical cooperation area including a customs union, the EU tariff band, competition etc linked to idea of the Common Market. EU Lite could also apply a structure of Confederation. Federalist intentions, the EU puppet parliament and the most of EU bureaucracy should from my point of view put in litter basket together with high-flown statements and other nonsense. (P.S: some background in my article EU in Turmoil and not only in Financial One - http://arirusila.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/eu-in-turmoil-and-not-only-in-financial-one/ )<br /><br />I see some benefits with confederalist view in new desirable politics. Policymaking starts from community assemblies based on the practices of participatory democracy and continues further by interlinking villages, towns, neighborhoods, and cities into confederal networks. Power thus flows from the bottom up instead of from the top down like today. With critical issues – such as human rights, civil liberties, international policy etc political units can adopt a common constitution while the task of central governments would be providing support for all members. Democratic confederalism is based on grass-roots participation. Its decisionmaking processes lie with the communities; in conclusion my vision is decentralized society a network of directly democratic citizens' assemblies in individual communities/cities organized in a confederal fashion.Arielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11677786176186568341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-62034711420320490812013-06-25T08:44:23.580+01:002013-06-25T08:44:23.580+01:00The House of commons library says nothing it is no...The House of commons library says nothing it is not capable of speaking it a a building. 1 piece of paper in it might contain that falacy, but it is well known that the vast majority of the time taken by Westminster politicians is rubber stamping edicts from the eussr, most of which come directly from the commission. 75 to 80% has been shown to be correct, only europhiles try to say otherwise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-33038229084443844762013-06-24T17:48:09.889+01:002013-06-24T17:48:09.889+01:00Anonymous -
"House of Commons library says i...Anonymous -<br /><br />"House of Commons library says it's more like 10%."<br /><br />You're citing an outdated report which has long been discredited on the grounds that it completely ignored all the numerous EU Regulations that don't even go anywhere near Parliament.Denis Coopernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-83474061999563151112013-06-24T15:30:07.590+01:002013-06-24T15:30:07.590+01:00This saves Cameron a great deal of time - all he h...This saves Cameron a great deal of time - all he has to do is parrot the Dutch bit of "tidying-up" and say "Look what we AND THE DUTCH have negotiated" and bob's yer uncle Referendum says stay in and we are are stuck for evermore as a powerless vassal of Brussels unable to control or immigration, set our own laws and trade freely and openly with the wider world and not just with the EU's euro-basket-case.<br /><br />This is a blueprint for eternal serfdom. <br />christina speightnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-40111027055901358292013-06-24T14:56:37.560+01:002013-06-24T14:56:37.560+01:00Anonymous,the following are the competencies we ha...Anonymous,the following are the competencies we have surrendered to the EU and which under EU law cannot be repatriated without invoking article 50 of the Lisbon treaty or renegotiated without the unanimous agreement of all the other member countries.<br /><br />All, repeat all, of our commerce and industry, social and employment policy, transport, environment, <br />agriculture, fish,and foreign aid, where we have ceded control to the EU and about which we can do absolutely nothing. <br /><br />In all, Brussels is now responsible for about 75 per cent of our laws, leaving us with 170,000 pages of EU diktats to obey, the equivalent of 250 King James Bibles!<br /><br />In some cases, our politicians are happy enough to see Brussels<br />ram through laws which they haven't got the guts to introduce themselves in our own increasingly impotent Parliament.<br /><br />With the enforcement of the self-amending Lisbon Treaty, economist<br />Ruth Lea has warned, "There will quite simply be no more significant<br />powers left solely with the governments of the member states, and outside the orbit of the EU's formal institutions."<br /><br />You can of course refuse to believe any of the above and continue to listen to the spin you quote. You could also, if you wanted to test the truth, do your own research via Google starting with Open Europe and Global Vision!<br /><br />Good Luck!<br /><br /><br />clinihypnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-21219535469476960722013-06-24T14:37:18.458+01:002013-06-24T14:37:18.458+01:00Under EU law,the Dutch government, like our own is...Under EU law,the Dutch government, like our own is unable to renegotiate their terms of membership, or repatriate any of the laws they have surrendered, without invoking article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty or the highly unlikely Unanimous agreement of all the other member countries.clinihypnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-59850107091567023402013-06-24T14:09:40.497+01:002013-06-24T14:09:40.497+01:00So, the Dutch want better meals, a softer mattress...So, the Dutch want better meals, a softer mattress and kinder prison guards.<br /><br />This is nonsense.<br /><br />the EUSSR is unreformable and tyrannical and rhe UK needs to be free of it.<br /><br />As for Open Europe: more Eurofascism from them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-52915147183990194952013-06-24T12:35:38.094+01:002013-06-24T12:35:38.094+01:00Jesper,
The idea that 80% of the legislation imple...Jesper,<br />The idea that 80% of the legislation implemented by our nations comes out of EU institutions, is an old chestnut. House of Commons library says it's more like 10%.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-820112449141377042013-06-24T12:17:17.377+01:002013-06-24T12:17:17.377+01:00@Anonymous
Nearly all legal systems work on paper...@Anonymous <br />Nearly all legal systems work on paper it is however mainly how they end up working in real life. And there is clearly room for improvement with the EU to say it mildly.<br />I jusat see Jon says it much better than me.<br /><br />1. It shows again that EZ countries still probably think that they can hold the thing together and no treaty change (partly as a consequence of the former) will be necessay.<br />I sincerely doubt both.<br /><br />What I am missing at the moment is say backbenchers stating that an Euro exit will mean an EU exit. With all consequences. Same btw from the Scottish PM (witht he fishy name). These are nearly the same rules as for scotland and Catalunya. And legally it looks simple exit only via 50 possible and subsequently a new application would be necessary. Unless all 27 agree which is totally unlikely.<br /><br />Hard to see that will entitlements have to be cut (halved or so) Greeks, Spanish will go this way for another decade or so. And hard to see that with no real will to reform the North will keep trying plugging the blackholes.<br /><br />Anyway it looks like when something happens the EZ will be caught with its pants down as far as treaty change is concerned. Which isnot bad for the UK.<br /><br />2. Cameron should try to use this and incorporate it in his own strategy. he probably can easy agree with the Dutch to disagree on treaty change. Basically the Dutch want half of what the UK probably requires and hardly anything that the UK doesnot want and/or can stay out of (Euro stuff).<br />Dutch will want some support as well. With Germany more playing the mediator role as well and at home much less pressure from eurosceptic parties. In the Dutch polls these are not far from a majority (and rising, what looks to be at least a medium term trend).<br /><br />3. This Dutch cabinet is butchered in the polls and it looks rather permanent. <br />However this is a thing that is very likley also supported by nearly all other mainstream polical parties (except the D66 possibly). And the populists are in a high speed elevator at the moment as well.<br />In a nutshell this is not going to get away (unless the Dutch combined back off) and possibly will get considerably worse if the polls are an indication. Riknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-48786520117624511252013-06-23T23:29:45.815+01:002013-06-23T23:29:45.815+01:00You could sum up what "anonymous" posted...You could sum up what "anonymous" posted as "Don't watch what they do, only what they say".jon liveseynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-87132485467809667812013-06-23T19:29:37.027+01:002013-06-23T19:29:37.027+01:00"Though not all good news for David Cameron’s..."Though not all good news for David Cameron’s renegotiation strategy – the Dutch have explicitly said they don’t want EU treaty change for example – this is clearly a major step towards a reformed Europe."<br /><br />I'd say that ruling out treaty change renders the whole exercise entirely pointless, except for pulling the wool over the eyes of Dutch voters.<br /><br />How can a government declare that the time for "ever closer union" is past, but also say that there is no need for treaty change, when under the present EU treaties it is solemnly committed to a continuation of that process?<br /><br />So what is the Dutch government going to do? <br /><br />Break its word and do everything it can to obstruct a process which it has agreed to support? <br /><br />The Netherlands is a party to the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties:<br /><br />http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/1_1_1969.pdf<br /><br />but has its government now forgotten what it agreed in the preamble to that Convention?<br /><br />"Noting that the principles of free consent and of good faith and the pacta sunt servanda rule are universally recognized". <br /><br />At least Cameron has adopted the consistent position that the UK does not want to pursue "ever closer union", and it would prefer to have the EU treaties changed to reflect that; he didn't say the first while ruling out the second.<br /><br />But apparently in any case the great majority of the Dutch have no national pride, and would not be in the least concerned if their country was reduced from being an independent sovereign state to becoming a part (or parts) of a pan-European federation, so why is their government even proposing to impede that process?<br /><br />At least, that's what I've understood from a certain Dutch eurofanatic who has commented above.Denis Coopernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-3700104596267272982013-06-22T18:04:11.540+01:002013-06-22T18:04:11.540+01:00Anonymous says this is playing to the Eurosceptic ...Anonymous says this is playing to the Eurosceptic gallery - to a point yes.<br /><br />It also, rather cleverly, shows (indicates) just how much European legislation/proposals are coming down the pipeline in terms or trying to tread on national governments areas of competence.<br /><br />Having studied the thin end of the wedge of all things EU ("The guiding principle of “Europe where necessary, national where possible”, ) - it has become a compete joke.<br /><br />My summary is that the Dutch have done all good citizens a favour by setting some red lines, equally, I would expect the UK govt to do absolutely nothing about this or even recognise the great service afforded us by our Dutch friends.johnlandseernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-66989223159493892582013-06-22T16:03:29.728+01:002013-06-22T16:03:29.728+01:00Interesting to see how the anonymous poster read i...Interesting to see how the anonymous poster read it.<br /><br />I'd say the conclusions listed by the anonymous poster is supporting the Eurocrats position: Nothing need to change.<br /><br />But I might be counterproductive here, maybe the anonymous poster and myself want the same thing. So, if Eurocrats believe that the change/reform wouldn't change anything, lets agree to reform. I'd rather see work on reform than on olive-oil legislation. Working on reform has at least a chance to lead towards something better. <br /><br />The theory is pretty, the practice not so.<br /><br />The difference between setting out goals and micromanaging is subjective. The anonymous poster appear to have the opinion that what comes out of EU institutions, (60% or 80% (or more?) of the legislation implemented by nations) is setting out goals. I'd say it is micro-management by people who can't manage their own affairs well enough to pass audits...Jespernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-49871697914543101452013-06-22T07:23:37.402+01:002013-06-22T07:23:37.402+01:00Olli Rehn's current power as commissioner deri...Olli Rehn's current power as commissioner derives from a Dutch government proposal, demonstrating that the Netherlands is not against further integration, but then focused on areas that really matter. <br />Concentrating on the tasks that really matter (shown in the current crisis)may produce a more effective EUPeter van Leeuwennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-72683191438266944722013-06-22T06:36:17.118+01:002013-06-22T06:36:17.118+01:00A lot of this is playing to the eurosceptic galler...A lot of this is playing to the eurosceptic gallery:<br /><br />• The guiding principle of “Europe where necessary, national where possible”, is already in the EU treaties (the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality). Furthermore, EU legislation requires the approval of a very large majority of national governments in the EU Council (a 'qualified majority' is about 74% of the votes in the Council), so nothing can be adopted anyway unless most governments want it. <br /><br />• "Where the European Court of Justice interprets EU law in a way that EU legislators had not provided for and/or did not intend, then this should be possible to address by amending the EU rules".This is perfectly possible already. Indeed, most EU legislation these days is about amending existing legislation, and there is nothing to stop this being done to adjust for the consequences of Court rulings (themselves only triggered when there is a dispute referred to the Court about what a text means) <br /><br />• "Every EU intervention needs to be motivated by a clear legal basis in the EU Treaties". That is the case already. <br /><br />• "EU legislation should focus on main points to achieve shared goals rather than to prescribe in detail how those goals should be achieved". That is exactly what EU 'directives' do: they lay down the goal to be achieved and leave it to Member States to adapt (if necessary) their national legislation or practices.<br /><br /> • "When there are widely shared objections to EU legislation, there should be a mechanism to stop the Commission taking any further initiative in that area ...to stop new EU laws in areas where national governments don’t want them". Given that the Commission only proposes, while governments in the Council (with elected MEPs in the Parliament) decide, there is no way EU legislation can be adopted unless most governments want it! The only exception is where governments have delegated technical implementing powers to the Commission, and even then, they have procedures to block the Commission.<br /><br />• "Halting the further harmonisation of social security systems." There hasn't actually been much 'harmonisation'- rather the granting of reciprocal rights, but again, this can only happen if and when a very large majority of governments and of MEPs want it.<br /><br />• "Limiting the EU budget" The budget IS limited by a double lock: the EU's resources cannot exceed 1.24% of GDP/GNI and, within that, spending ceilings are laid down for each category of expenditure, by the Member States, acting unanimously in the Council. They cannot be raised unless everyone agrees. <br /> <br />•"A two-year freeze in salaries of EU officials" That is already ageeed in principle.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-62988708017090475572013-06-21T18:03:26.985+01:002013-06-21T18:03:26.985+01:00Hi Anonymous, here is a link to the original Dutch...Hi Anonymous, here is a link to the original Dutch text http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten-en-publicaties/vergaderstukken/2013/06/21/inventarisatie-eu-regelgeving-op-subsidiariteit-en-proportionaliteit-nederlandse-lijst-van-actiepunten.htmlOpen Europe blog teamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14748826686375312308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-87801812648281533122013-06-21T17:39:29.425+01:002013-06-21T17:39:29.425+01:00Could you post a link to the original Dutch text, ...Could you post a link to the original Dutch text, if possible? Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com