tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post6770516596936477492..comments2024-01-16T08:40:53.682+00:00Comments on <a href="http://www.openeurope.org.uk">Open Europe</a>: German Constitutional Court live blog: One of the most important cases in the Court's history?OEhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00556463374230498875noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-90741529822715446882013-06-14T09:20:15.856+01:002013-06-14T09:20:15.856+01:00Rik -
If the German court expressed the view tha...Rik - <br /><br />If the German court expressed the view that the ECB bond buying was a breach of EU law then the ECB would go to the ECJ and that court would decide one way or another, almost certainly in favour of the ECB; whereupon the German court would itself be in breach of EU law if it continued with attempts to prevent the Bundesbank from discharging its responsibilities under EU law, and the Bundesbank would have no choice but to comply with the ECJ ruling in defiance of the German court. <br /><br />Some people in Germany seem to think that they can insist on imposing the primacy of EU law on people in other countries but not be subject to it themselves.Denis Coopernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-58649731908232372692013-06-13T19:38:16.671+01:002013-06-13T19:38:16.671+01:00@Denis
You are mixing 2 things up, like most btw:
...@Denis<br />You are mixing 2 things up, like most btw:<br />There are 2 issues:<br />-123 (or something close), whether or not ECB has violated that (the anti-bail out). Which is EU law. On which the GCC can decide itself if it thinks the rules are clear btw. It not even has to refer to the ECJ if it doesnot see it fit, providing of course it is competent.<br />-88 German Constitution. At the end of the day the transfer of powers to the ECB under the present conditions (extended interpratation by the ECB of its mandate) is permitted. Pure German law. The only thing the GCC cannot do if it rules on this is directly forbiding the ECB to do things. But it can easily do it indirectly by say ordering the Buba to stop cooperating or even worse reverse the earlier transfer of powers.<br />Basically it is 123 but via 88 if you like.<br /><br />Comments mix the 2 most of the time, however legally they are 2 completely seperate issues. <br />For 123 EU the court might actually not be competent. You can put a questionmark there probably. However via 88 GG it certainly is.<br /><br />That is why Schauble's remark on that is simply moronic. Never defend points you are nearly certain to lose. <br />It simply makes him from a political pov look (a bit of) an idiot as well (not for the simpletons btw). A German minister completely missing the German Constitution (on his top of the agenda issue). Which, the GG, should be by far his most important guideline. Riknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-62403287516387457002013-06-13T11:30:14.978+01:002013-06-13T11:30:14.978+01:00reported today by openeurope and ft...
Meanwhile, ...reported today by openeurope and ft...<br />Meanwhile, Bundesbank President Jens Weidmann suggested that he would welcome clarification and limits to the ECB’s mandate.<br /><br />this is truly depressing....Weidmann is on the ecb executive board...<br /><br />now I am really worried..johnlandseernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-66097053349113584362013-06-13T11:09:33.165+01:002013-06-13T11:09:33.165+01:00Rik -
It is not, repeat not, for the German court...Rik -<br /><br />It is not, repeat not, for the German court to decide whether the ECB has exceeded its mandate under the EU treaties.<br /><br />The ECB is an EU institution governed by EU law, and the ECJ has the final word.<br /><br />I agree with what you say about it being anomalous to complain about either the ECB or the Bundesbank acting undemocratically when they have been specifically set up to be free from democratic influence.Denis Coopernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-81309199527094867732013-06-13T11:04:48.615+01:002013-06-13T11:04:48.615+01:00Jesper -
I was thinking of two months after the v...Jesper -<br /><br />I was thinking of two months after the vote on the ECB Governing Council when the Bundesbank was apparently the only opponent of the proposal.<br /><br />But maybe you're right, maybe there would be a fresh opportunity when the detailed measure is published.<br /><br />I note here:<br /><br />http://www.dw.de/germanys-constitutional-court-criticizes-ecb/a-16877427<br /><br />"Conservative MP Gunther Krichbaum, meanwhile, counters, "We, in this case the Bundestag and the government, believe the ECB acted within its mandate." If that had not been the case, maintains Krichbaum, chairman of the parliamentary committee on EU affairs, the government would have brought its own suit before the European Court of Justice."<br /><br />And NB, they would have gone to the ECJ, not the German court. Denis Coopernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-23298486999611221942013-06-12T22:53:57.398+01:002013-06-12T22:53:57.398+01:00@Denis
You are missing the plot like a lot of comm...@Denis<br />You are missing the plot like a lot of commentators.<br />This case is mainly about the question if the German constitution allows what is happening. If the earlier transfer of powers by the Buba to the ECB is allowed under the Constitution seen the fact that the ECB takes the broadest possibly interpretation of its mandate? A much broader one than assumed by effectively all when the transfer earlier took place. Nothing to do in that respect with EU law. <br /><br />Another point that half the analyst miss is the fact that the ECB is an independent CB. Which makes the Bundestag rubberstamping decisions in this field something that completely doesnot fit in with the set up of the ECB in the treaties. CB (modern) mandate is limited by laws simple as that.<br /><br />I miss the detils but has Voskuhl (or what is his name) really indicated that there should be a grand discussion on the ECB mandate.<br />Would find that totally weird. he is no mediator. Highest judge in the land that simply has to decide if something is allowed by the constitution or not.Riknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-37474456389150437022013-06-12T18:57:32.210+01:002013-06-12T18:57:32.210+01:00Can't article 263 still be applied?
Proceedin...Can't article 263 still be applied?<br /><br />Proceedings have to begin within 2 months after the publication of measures but the ECB has not yet published, and is at the moment refusing to publish, the legal documents of the OMT.<br /><br />The measure does seem illegal but since the details of the measure are unknown it seems impossible to know.... Can there be rule of law when the laws are secret?Jespernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-83849754649991307062013-06-12T17:55:24.246+01:002013-06-12T17:55:24.246+01:00Anybody who reads the EU treaties with an impartia...Anybody who reads the EU treaties with an impartial eye will doubt that the ECB is permitted to rig the market in the bonds issued by the government of an EU member state.<br /><br />There are repeated commitments to the principle of a free market economy, with efficient allocation of capital; and there is Article 124 TFEU prohibiting any measure to give (inter alia) a member state government privileged access to financial institutions - which is of course what happens when the ECB rigs the market so that a government can borrow from the participating financial institutions at a lower interest rate than would otherwise be the case.<br /><br />However while an impartial observer may tend to agree with Jens Weidmann that the ECB is contravening the EU treaties and its own statute by doing it, or even by announcing its willingness to do it, the legal reality is that the final interpretation of the EU treaties and laws rests not with that impartial observer nor with Weidmann and nor with the German constitutional court but with the EU's Court of Justice, a bunch of eurofederalists in Luxembourg who will always weight their decisions towards the pursuit of "ever closer union".<br /><br />Arguably Weidmann should have taken his complaint about the actions and plans of the ECB direct to that EU court; which I believe he could have done under Article 263 TFEU, provided he had acted within two months.<br /><br />Instead it is quite possible that the German court will refer the question of the legality of the ECB actions and plans to the EU court for its final decision.Denis Coopernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-47502878795767438482013-06-12T12:59:39.865+01:002013-06-12T12:59:39.865+01:00Why is open Europe trying to hype this very pedest...Why is open Europe trying to hype this very pedestrian and pre-digested situation so much?<br /><br />Here's the truth:<br /><br />Germany = ECB = EUSSR.<br /><br />i.e. the German Court will continue to facilitate the maintenance of the EUSSR in any way it can, including with ridiculous show trials and pro-EUSSR "decisions" such as are being concocted right now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-69009555073149400562013-06-12T09:48:40.993+01:002013-06-12T09:48:40.993+01:00-the OMT is pari passu (equal to) other creditors?...-the OMT is pari passu (equal to) other creditors?<br />We saw how pair pasu with SMP worked out for Greece, the pari pasu was worked around on a technicality.....<br /><br />-OMT seeks only to reduce unwarranted interest rate spikes?<br />Who decides what is 'unwarranted'? Are economists now able to accurately predict default risk?<br /><br />-states that fail to comply with the OMT's conditionality could be faced with the prospect of having to leave the eurozone?<br />But a country can't be forced to leave the eurozone, treaties specify that countries cannot exit from the euro...Jespernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-15470656200287617872013-06-11T20:20:50.586+01:002013-06-11T20:20:50.586+01:00Most interesting is Schauble's statement imho....Most interesting is Schauble's statement imho.<br />As first of all this will be Merkel's official position as well. And therefor the 'official' one of CDU and Government.<br /><br />Simply gives an excellent point of attack on Schauble for say AfD. Simply as S's statement means that there is no German control on this and no parliamentary control as well.<br />The Euro/Euro-rescue has a lot of opponents, but the undemocratic way things go have as well. From earlier UK polls it seems to be around 20% of the electorate that is pro-EU but simply totally against the 'democratic' process.<br />Same percentage can be derived from some Dutch polls. Percentage looks rather stable over Europe. Difficult to see why it should be completely different in Germany.<br />Attack now is not really convincing, attacks Merkel who is the most rescue sceptic of the 3 larger parties. Not really makes complete sense.<br />Democracy or better the lack thereof is almost as big an issue as the rescue itself. And Merkel and S hardly look great on this account/file.<br /><br />In other words this could give AfD a good point to attack Schauble on (and so indirectly Merkel). Much better than Merkel herself, she makes much less mistakes in the defence, S is pretty sloppy. Plus another issue to campaign upon. Riknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-34399988613742683932013-06-11T19:33:35.961+01:002013-06-11T19:33:35.961+01:00English translation of the Bundesbank's letter...English translation of the Bundesbank's letter to the BVerfG: http://www.antehoc.com/2013/06/bundesbank-letter-to-german.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36227136.post-50539262554075696062013-06-11T17:57:16.843+01:002013-06-11T17:57:16.843+01:00The ECB is not independent! That argument is nonse...The ECB is not independent! That argument is nonsense and it only comes up when some lunatic Eurocrat takes the stage. The Central Bank is only allowed to act within a legal framework. And imho operations like SMP and OMT are forbidden because according to the Lisbon Treaty the ECB is not allowed to finance member states.<br /><br />And it's funny that Asmusen states that the ECB may also sell bonds. Because asaik they didn't sell a single bond that was bought under the SMP even though the market conditions were extremely good since Abe and Kuroda fired up the printing press.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com